0218 GMT
London
Wednesday
02 December 2009
Editor © Muhammad Haque
KHOODEELAAR! TOLD YOU SO!
That IF the London Assembly ever did its job and scrutinised the conduct of the ‘mayor’ then a great deal of wasteful behaviour could be exposed thus saving the people of London so much wastes…We have argued for years that the EXISTING transport system was in serious need of improvement, repair and upgrade… The transport committee of the London assembly has just proven that point.. It has taken years to do so...
Now they must confess to it and say that CROSSRAIL should be scrapped and the money wrongly allocated for it by the DfT and by TfL be put instead to improving the existing transport system in and around London. [To be continued]
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23777648-tube-overcrowding-is-turning-londoners-into-selfish-animals.do
Tube overcrowding 'is turning Londoners into selfish animals'
Katharine Barney and Ross Lydall
01.12.09
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Overcrowding on the Tube is forcing passengers to fight for space and to ignore the needs of the pregnant and people with babies.
A report today reveals that rush-hour travellers "shut down" to cope with the battle on packed trains. One passenger said: "I'm a different animal on the Tube from normal life. I'm not me. I'm a bit less interested in others."
The London Assembly report names the Northern and Central lines as the most overcrowded, with the Central line between Bethnal Green and Liverpool Street the worst, carrying 60,000 passengers from 7am to 10am.
Other major crush-points include the Northern line between the Clapham stations and Kennington, and lines arriving and departing at King's Cross.
Passengers told researchers that they would "suspend normal codes of behaviour" and look to secure a seat, regardless of whether other more needy people might need it.
Many listened to music or turned their back on other passengers as they went into "automatic pilot routine".
Overall, more than 80 per cent of passengers complained of overcrowding, with more than half sometimes unable to board the first train.
The transport committee report, Too Close For Comfort, criticises the "chaotic" Jubilee line upgrade - which could last until next autumn - for hastily arranged and inefficient closures. It fears this could have an impact on the Northern line, the next to be upgraded by private firm Tube Lines.
The Jubilee line has seen more than 100 disruptions in two years, with the ExCeL exhibition centre in Docklands losing 25 per cent of its turnover and paying £500,000 a year in compensation to clients. The O2 arena has paid £400,000 in the last year on replacement transport to help visitors get to North Greenwich.
The reports suggests "traffic light" information about crowding levels and details of alternative routes before people pass through the ticket barriers so they can pick an alternative route.
Caroline Pidgeon, Liberal Democrat chairman of the transport committee, said: "Our report highlights shocking levels of overcrowding on the Tube and the impact this has on people. London Underground cannot be complacent about finding ways to make the situation more bearable.
"We are also calling for new thinking on how Tube upgrade work is managed. There is an assumption that seemingly endless line closures are inevitable but... this is simply not the case."
The report calls for block closures - closing lines for weeks or even months - to be considered in preference to continual weekend closures.
A Transport for London spokesman said: "We are spending billions to increase capacity on the Tube by 30 per cent in what is the biggest investment since in decades. This will mean more trains, able to carry more passengers, with faster journeys and larger stations.
"Even today, the improvement in reliability means that more people are carried on the Tube compared with three years ago with no additional crowding caused."
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Reader views (62) Add your view
Standing on the Clapham Common platform during rush hour (or two) is akin to dicing with death.
- David, London
I agree with one I read ealrier about british culture and values. So many clutures from other parts of the world live here but have kept there own cluture (Dont que) and show no repect for britain or its people but take all it has to offer. I love the facility of the tube as it is regular and convenient but during peak times and also after 10pm when travelling home from the theatre, majority do behave like pack animals. This makes it very difficult for me when balancing, getting in and out of seats and standing for long periods as I have scoliosis that is not yet recognisable. Some of the older generation, I find ruder pigheaded and more ignorant than the young plus a lot fitter. This also applies on the buses. We should not have to give a seat for pensioners if they are able to stand as some of the younger generation are alot more disabled, which can be noticed by there disabled freedom pass or by sight. More tube stations culd be made such as one in Croyden and neighbouring communities, making it assessable for all to get to places. ,
- Louise, Croydon, England
It's like this on the roads too. Cars, bikes, buses, lorries, taxis and the occasional pedestrian. Everyone in a hurry and not enough space to move.
- Dom, London
When I was pregnant and commuting in I was offered a seat on only two occasions. I don't know about switching off, but I had people actually staring me out, as if to say: 'If you think you're getting my seat, you can think again'. I actually took to walking to work in the end as I was so dismayed by people's behaviour. As for people with babies, the whole transport network colludes in treating us as second class citizens. When was the last time you saw a ramp or a lift in a tube station? We're sent a very clear message that we're not welcome. And if parents feel that way, imagine what people with wheelchairs feel like.
- Lj, london
Sorry all you are critical injury for inmigrant came to do in London and most of England Land, but a dreamer is who in spite of adversity goes throughout and get it. So please be tolerant, patient and wise as most of you ever have been and God will bless you providing to England the most beautiful people and land that neighter people nor land will in this particular stage of the life in our world.
I left London just two years aga, and thank you all for my great experience over there
- Rene Melo, Quito - Ecuador
I am really fed up with people bringing collapsable cycles onto crowded underground trains and shoving them into my ankles, legs and arms.
If cyclist must bring cycles into London they should be on the road and banned from public transport
- James, London
I get much enjoyment at watching those who scramble to get on a packed train when the indicators show that there will be 3 trains in the next 5 minutes. I just wait and sometimes get a carriage all to myself!
While travelling on C2C you get those in a rush jumping on a train at West Ham finding out the next stop is Basildon or even Benfleet and they only wanted Barking!!
Perhaps a way of fitting more platform edge doors like those on the JLE should be found?
- Melvyn Windebank, Canvey Island, Essex
When I was pregnant last summer the jubilee line was dreadful (from Waterloo to Canary Wharf c8.30am). People don't deliberately not give up a seat, it is so packed at Waterloo you can barely fit into the carriage. Sometimes I'd wait for 15mins until I could fit on a train. Yes there is a "got to a get a seat" mentality, but have you tried standing in the section by the doors - the most atrocious behaviour was when people tried to squeeze on at Canada Water with me 8m pregnant by the doors.......
- Julie, London, United Kingdom
I have lived in various parts of the country and found Londoners to be the most considerate of all public transport users. Whilst pregnant and travelling to and from work by tube on the busy Northern line I was ALWAYS offered a seat. I cant say the same for Bristol where I am currently based and heavily pregnant and have NEVER been offered a seat on the packed buses I use daily!
- Annabelle, Bristol
" in 1950 I could travel from Barkingside Essex to Cheam Surrey in one hour by train. Today it would take two and half hours, provided the trains were running at all"
I don't entirely believe you - the route's not changed since 1950 (Central/Northern/mainline) and takes about 90 minutes, which in all-the-way-across-a-city terms is reasonable.
"This new investment sounds interesting. Platforms are of a certain length so how will the new trains carry more passengers"
Moving block signalling means trains travel closer together, thus arrive more frequently resulting in shorter waits and smaller crowds. Hopefully. Currently only the Docklands really operates like this although the Central runs automatically with very short fixed blocks for much the same effect (and even there demand has already exceeded capacity, it appears).
"closing the flood gates to immigration isnt going to make a blind bit of difference in the long run."
Racist rubbish. London's population is not even back up to what it was before the massive postwar depopulation, and still considerably less than it used to be in the 19th century in some areas - one of the reason that transport's crowded is that people moved *out* of inner London and thus travel further. Get some facts down yer.
- Tom, London, UK
This consent disregards of peoples space and proximity and resultent bumping, is in indicative of the global disrispect and inconsideration prevalent today, specificaloy,with regards to my disability Scoliosis not readily visable that does not protect me from the blatant disregard of fellow passengers relating to my difficulty of standing and balancing which necessitates my holding the pole and crome seat backs which passengers are reluctant to allow me to do, verbaly abusing me in the process.
- Louuise, Croydon, England
I'd love to know how much money was spent on this report telling everyone something that any tube user has known for a long time. I use the Northern Line every working day and most weekends. Bank station is a nightmare with the the upgrade of single escalators taking 11 months each so it takes 15 minutes during rush hour just to fight to the platform. And I do mean fight. Then thanks to good old Ken I have a nightmare getting to my destination as Mill Hill East station has the worst service ever so most people get off a stop earlier and pick up their cars. London. I love it.
- Lou, London
It amazes me that as 80% of the GDP is generated in the capital such paltry initiatives happen to improve transport. Even the most recent investment in a drop in the ocean. This is the surefire result.
I just hope that the Jubilee Line improvements finish before Overground starts dumping a large chunk of commuters in SE London to Canada Water as their only interchange, rather than London Bridge, Waterloo East, Charring Cross and Cannon Street for connections!
- Ian, London
Get on your bikes!
- Ivan, London
.... but so often you cannot tell the difference between a fat woman and a pregnant woman. One would obvioulsy and without question give up one's seat for a pregnant woman but what if you gave it up only to find she was obese ! ? A tragedy ! .... Being a gentleman in times of ever increasing obesity is not easy and requires skillful powers of deduction.
- Confused Gentleman, London
What we need is Crossrail. Anything to introduce some more capacity!
- Liz, London
They forgot to mention Victoria... and Balham!
Still, am sure Boris has it all in hand. Ahem...
- Liam, London
It's hardly all the government's fault. When I lived in London until last year, it seemed that here are platform-length trains arriving in stations every three minutes or so at rush hour. I suppose they could double the amount of rolling stock at a massive cost if the UK taxpayers were willing to pay for it - which, at this point, I suspect they're not! however, it's one of the obvious downsides of living in a city like london -there are simply too many people there! That said, it would also help if employers were to take a more mature approach to homeworking or staggered hours, instead of insisting that everyone be at their desks in central london by 8.30 or nine or whatever. it was my experience that the City took a particularly obstinate approach to this.
- Kevin Lynch, Dublin
This will only stop when non essential travellers are barred during peak times. Why are kids, people with suitcases, pushchairs, household items and even tramps allowed on during rush hour? No one with suitcases and big boxes containing TV's and the like should be permitted at any time. There are cabs for that.
On the whole there is politeness but the dregs who ignore the old and the pregnant are truly disgusting and should be loudly pointed at and exposed/humiliated. This being Britain everyone just tuts and ignores it.
- Dan, London
Manners are not just for when it's convenient. Bumping, a little pushing I understand. Not giving up a seat to somebody old, infirm or pregnant is just selfish and bad mannered. People just need to remember it could be their wife, grandmother, etc.
- Mark, London
I've got to paya ridiculous price to endure 40 minutes every morning and evening of pure anxiety on the tubes. I have to catch 3 tubes to get to work in the morning, and nearly each one I have to wait for the second or third. I'm too short to hold on to the railing above your head if you're standing in the middle, and on the central line have to stand on my toes to get a secure grip! Never mind the people who read their papers and lean them on my head! The amount of times I've been shoved and grabbed on to is ridiculous and reminds me of my holiday in a third world country on an incredibly crowded train. For the amount of money we pay, surely an increased/more efficient service should be implemented? Maybe an official should be introduced during busy times to ensure those who need to sit, get to sit..
- Ciara, London
I was just wishing the other day after another horrific journey in to work that an article about selfish Londoners should be written. I am 6 months pregnant and was told to get a baby on board badge to help get a seat on the tube as I am getting bigger and standing for a long time can be uncomfortable.
I feel like an idiot wearing the badge as no one has ever offered me a seat, instead they just tuck their heads into their papers and pretend not to notice you, especially if they are sitting in that allocated seating. I actually saw a young girl racing a pregnant woman to a seat the other day. She sat down, opened her paper and ignored the open mouthed lady. Luckily a man close by watched the show and gave up his seat. I have seen people on crutches standing as healthy young things sit in the priority seats. What has made people so seat hungry is beyond me but I do know now that I am fiercely protective of my unborn and after one too many pushes to the stomach as people pass I could find the strength to push a grown man out of a train if he backs his backpack into me one more time? Look out London my new badge says ‘Crazy On Board’
- Frances, London
If there are 3 tube maintenance companies, then in my opinion no more than 3 lines should be shut at any one time. All the workers from one company should be concentrating on one line, or one section of a line, so that the same area is closed as few times as possible. Does nobody have any common sense in TFL? Is our useless mayor too dumb to think of things like this?
- D.W., London
""Tube overcrowding 'is turning Londoners into selfish animals'"""
This is not news.
Why are these people paid to create report of the bleedin obvious.?
- Rikrok, London
Its quite easy really. There are TOO MANY PEOPLE.
- Grim Reaper, Hell
When did it become the norm for parents travelling in rush hour with young children to insist that each child gets their own seat rather than sharing a lap? At the risk of sounding tweedy, when I was a child I was taught never to sit if adults were standing.
- Gina Hill, Muswell Hill, UK
Artic Buses is a readily available replacement bus that is ideal for closed tube lines but London having voted for a mayor ruled by dogma and not common sense means that this option is ignored. It provides a fast to board easy access solution and until recently was used on Jubilee Line replacement work. The fact is the Jubilee line was an easy option compared to closures on the Piccadilly or Northern lines!
As for running more trains this is no good if the stations cant cope, especially those where escalotors dont start at platform level and so passengers get stuck on narrow staircases.
I used the new Kings Cross yesterday and the size is massive compared to how it used to be. However, the penalty is it now has long passeges where the original station was straight up and down.
What the new station did show is the nonsense talk of step free access being just for wheelchair users when the lift I used was full of able bodied people although some had luggage and what was shown is how these lifts help clear the platforms and help keep escalators clear of people with luggage and prams which hinder the flow.
I also noticed when I got to Victoria a woman with a large pram trying to work out how to use the escalator from the Victoria Line. I hope she has enough food and water as Boris has delayed the lifts for a further 2 years!!
As for Bethnal Green - Liverpool Street a new central line station at Shoreditch High Street has been proposed but Boris prefers vanity!
- Melvyn Windebank, Canvey Island, Essex
They should adopt a system similar to the Tokyo subway where barriers run the length of the platform with openings for the doors - passengers then queue up at each entrance so everyone has to wait their turn.
- Someone, London
It is just not those who are pregnant or those with babies who are pushed aside. It also applies to the elderly and those with mobility problems. I spent apart of last year on crutches and the lack of consideration from some people is unbelieveable. The worse, by far, were middle aged women!
- Michael De Ferrari, London
There would be more space and fewer frayed tempers if people engaged their brains and took off their rucksacks/large shoulder bags and put them on the floor, rather than smacking other passengers in the head/ribs/other body parts with them every few seconds and taking up twice as much space as is necessary.
As a daily commuter I am kind of resigned to the scrum, but this mindlessness and complete lack of common sense is much more likely to wind me up and make me turn feral.
- Victor Meldrew, London
I saw the new Kings Cross station yesterday and the amount of space compared to the original station is incredible. However, while the old station was a simple straight up and down the new station involves passengers using long corridors to access and change trains so is more difficult for people who have problems walking.
As to running more trains this can only work if passengers can reach and leave trains more easily and this means station upgrades particularly where escalaors dont start at platform level as this leads to crowds trying to traipse up narrow staircases.
While as with many things "Transport" Mayor Boris and his Ranger simply have no idea how transport works the fact is by removing Artic buses (route 149 is next year!) passengers will move from buses to underground thus making the situation worse.
As for the busiest section of Central Line between Bethnal Green and Liverpool Street one solution would be to build a new central line station where the line crosses the East London Line at Shoreditch High Street
this has been proposed before but to do this costs money so its time to stop wasteing money on pet projects like 20th Century buses and removing perfectly good buses and instead spend the money on schemes like this one.
Step free access is also mis-represented as for wheelchairs only when its biggest use is speeding the clearence of platforms. Yesterday, I used one of the new lifts at Kings Cross and it was full without a sinle wheelchair!!
- Melvyn Windebank, Canvey Island, Essex
Why is this story only just newsworthy, its been likes this for YEARS!
- Julie Platt, Essex
SOCIETY IN THE UK WAS HEADING TOWARDS THE SEWERS, THE TUBE NETWORK IS JUST A SMALL STOP ON THE WAY.
- Mr S.Port, London
There are NO alternative routes between Clapham and Kennington, so what is the report suggesting - close the stations completely for the benefit of passengers travelling from Tooting or Morden?
- Mike, London
Something I have always known and said that commuters in London are the most pig ignorent in the world! Glad I don't have to use the tube anymore.
- Paul Humphreys, Essex
Picking an alternate route may sound a good idea, but people use their current route for good erason, i.e. it's the quickest. Many of us have to get up well before the crack of dawn, so having to get up even earlier to take a roundabout route is not an attractive option.
- Paul, London
Typical political spin: TfL and the government create a problem whereby there is not enough tube capacity for the number of passengers. But it is OUR fault for being inconsiderate to our fellow passengers.
How about looking at the reasons for the disgruntlement and solving those problems, rather than focusing on the outcome?
More services; air-conditioning; better information on problems; investment in the infrastructure.
- Nobby Clark, Perth, the Scottish one
Well if you're treated like a selfish animalyou'll end up acting like one
- Lindona, italy
It's not just the rush hour ! Time was when the only people on the tube and suburban trains before 07h00 were construction workers and cleaners, those times are long gone with people having to work long hours to make ends meet and the population of London increasing by a huge amount due to unchecked immigration and all that goes with it - rush hour now lasts for about 10 hours a day......
- Andy Woodhead, London, ENGLAND
Peoples behaviour on public transport has been changing for at least 20 years, due to the influx of different cultural arrivals and not obeying British culture. The rules of 'queing' went out of the window long ago I am afraid to say, along with manners, respect, civil curteses, ethics, values, traditions so on and so forth. When I was a child the first person at the bus stop was usually the first one on the bus unless there was some else more needy. People would give up their seats to the elderly, pregnant, people with children or those more in need. More often than not a gentleman would give up his seat for a lady. Long gone are those days! Today, if you even mention you were the first one in the que people look at you as if you were from another planet and that is if you are lucky, on the other hand you could get knifed for even daring to speak up for yourself or for being honest!
- Ashley Smithson, st albans
I've been using the Northern line for the last 4 months, during the rush hour and I've been surprised how many commuters have given up their seats for older people. In the US it's compulsory.
- Martin Watson, Teddington
They did an experiment with overcrowded rats some time ago and the end result was the rats attacking each other.
Look no further than 10 Downing Street for the cause, as our unelected leader still tries to shoehorn millions more people into our Country.
Either vote them out or move out. I moved, and will vote later on.
- Roger, Devon
This goes for the rest of Public Services,a direct result of too many people in the country,and ALL services being crippled under the strain, as I see it we have to take one of two options,either the whole country is covered in concrete and we spend hundreds of billions expanding all services,and building thousands of new homes,or we errect a sign,SORRY COUNTRY FULL.
- Stan Hopgood, London
well duh...
yesterday called, it wants its' news back.
- Scotty, London
Codswallop!
If I see a lady who is clearly pregnant, an elderly person is clearly having trouble standing whilst train is in motion, a parent struggling for grip whilst holding thier child....I will stand up and offer them my seat.
To say that a crowded tube makes people more selfish is ridiculous, using this as an excuse for ignorant and rude behaviour is despicable.
Off course this is my opinion, if scientific research does prove this then I shall weep for human kind.
- Decency, London, UK
"report names the Northern and Central lines as the most overcrowded"
The Central (which can't really be capacity upgraded any more than it is already) will be relieved by Crossrail, for all the Crossrail-haters out there. This report rather spells out why they're wrong.
- Tom, London, UK
Tube overcrowding is down to immigration,pure and simple.The City can't cope with the sheer amount of people now living here.
And still they come.
- Johnno, London
A "traffic light system" so people can tell when trains are crowded. What a dumb suggestion - how much did it cost them to come up with that. I know that the trains will be crowded when I go to work as it is rush hour. I can't "take an alternative route" as I am going to work. It is not as if I can call my boss and say "sorry mate, it is a red light on the tube, I am going to go via Stratford so will be an hour late." I hope whoever wrote that report gets honeytrapped in Beijing.
- Will, London, UK
What do you expect when people are packed in like rats in a cage
- Fred Dawson, New Malden
TfL bonuses all round!!
- Bob Mckenzie, London, UK
So we're penalised for using cars with a view to getting more people to use public transport - but using public transport is hell and far too expensive. Will politicians, etc, never learn? This country should be run by businessmen, not politicians.
- Alison, London, UK
Yeah right, OK - any excuse for rudeness!
- Nowan, London
When are our dim politicians going to realise that there are just too many people in this country, especially London, and that tinkering around the ages of capacity on the underground without closing the flood gates to immigration isnt going to make a blind bit of difference in the long run.
- Carrieash, London
Hmm...often wondered why I was stared up & down by passengers when I gave my seat to females who were either pensioners, pregnant or with bags of shopping when I was at university three years ago. Only in London!
- Terry Harpur, Norwich
Hey this is nothing new. This is one of the reasons I left the UK.
- Richard, Adelaide, Australia
This has happened to me in 1996 when I was pregnant. I was travelling on the circle line at an off-peak hour and even though the train was not crowded, NO ONE offered me a seat.
Unbelievable yet true!
- Cath, London
This new investment sounds interesting. Platforms are of a certain length so how will the new trains carry more passengers? Also more trains should make journeys longer unless braking and accelerating are greatly increased and of course people get on and off more quickly!
- Jack Spratt, Richmond, Surrey
It's no different on buses.
- Mark, South-East London
Being visibly pregnant, and having taken to wearing one of the 'Baby on Board' badges supplied by TFL, I'd like to thank absolutely no-one on the Jubilee Line over the last 2 months, especially everyone on the Westbound service this morning who made sure myself and the elderly woman with the walking stick both had to stand for 5 stops.
Chivalry, and even just basic decency are obviously dead.
- Beth, London
Travelling quite a lot on London transport, including the underground in rush hours, I am surprised at the high degree of civility shown by most travellers under difficult circumstances. I wonder how the survey questions were phrased as these can have a profound influence on the results. Nonetheless, there is great overcrowding and the rest of us must expect more of the same as our population rises and rises in a finite space (even if we continue the slash and burn policy of concreting over large open spaces). Central Line users might like to read the East of England plan. And overcrowding and the need to 'tune out' is not confined to London transport; perhaps some one will take an unbiased survey of home living conditions in terraced or semi detached properties where so many people are forced to share in the lives of their neighbours, one reason being there is no legal requirement to sound proof existing party walls as this would be too expensive for property owners to implement apparently.
- Helen, norwich
Just another Government failure. After twelve years everything is worse than twelve years ago. in 1950 I could travel from Barkingside Essex to Cheam Surrey in one hour by train. Today it would take two and half hours, provided the trains were running at all
- Alan Green, England. The forgotten country.
You've only got to walk across the concourse of any busy London station like Waterloo to see people just casually walking into other people as if they wern't there.
- Mark H, London England
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